Kareen Erbe: Hope and Resilience in Permaculture
Kareen Erbe in the Greenhouse
Above: Kareen at Work!
Credit for all photos on this page: Sara Gilman https://www.saragilmanphoto.com/
Transcription
Rattle (Jenny) 00:00:00
Jenny 00:00:06
Hi, Everyone. This is Jenny LePage. Welcome to the conversation about spiritual awakening, planetary shift in consciousness, adventure, healing, and finding your life path.
So, here we have with us today, Kareen Erbe. Kareen is owner of Broken Ground, a permaculture business in Bozeman, Montana, helping people grow their food to eat healthier, live more sustainably, and be more self-reliant. Kareen offers a resilient homestead program, garden consultations, edible landscape designs, and workshops. She guides aspiring and experienced gardeners and homesteaders, both online and in-person, focusing especially on maximizing food production in cold climates—though the permaculture principles can really be applied to any conditions.
Kareen teaches people about organic gardening, composting, and permaculture, empowering individuals and communities. She works both with small-scale yards and gardens to bigger farms to become more resilient and find hope in these unsettling times. You can find her at brokengroundpermaculture.com.
Jenny LePage 00:01:45
So, Kareen. I was just making a batch of kraut the other day. This is so fun; I was in my kitchen, and I was cutting up the kraut, and I was thinking back to when we were making kraut. This is the last time that we were really hanging out, maybe about ten years ago or so in your kitchen in Bozeman you had just recently acquired your property, and you had grown this cabbage, and we were talking about community and sustainability and permaculture, and all these things, and you were already starting to set up this really amazing food forest, and we took a tour around your land and saw the things you're doing: fruit trees and berries and herb spirals…a bunch of really cool things. And I'm sure it looks amazing, even more amazing now. And what you are doing in the world is really impressive.
So, I would love to both share some of this practical information with our listeners and also would love to hear a little bit about what is your inspiration? What was it that ignited you to even start doing this sort of work that you do?
Kareen Erbe 00:03:07
Yeah, Well, thank you so much, Jenny, for having me on your podcast. I really appreciate the opportunity. And yeah, I can't believe it's been ten years. Actually, this year marks our tenth growing season on our homestead.
Jenny LePage
Woooooh!
Kareen Erbe
So, lots of lessons learned in the past 10 years for sure. And I think,
Jenny LePage
I bet!
Kareen Erbe 00:03:30
Yeah, I think what has inspired me to begin this type of work was, you know, I have always been since a young age…I was an extremely shy person, but I always had a sensibility around animals. Like, I loved animals, and I had animal pictures pasted on my bedroom walls, and I think, even in my early teens I was reading books by Diane Fossey, by Jane Goodall, and I was always really angry that people chose…kind of…profit over wildlife habitat, that we were making all of these decisions. And I remember encountering an entry in my diary, saying…you know…”why are, why are people so stupid?” Right? You know. “Why are we, you know, destroying wildlife habitat?”
So, from an early age I had that sensibility. And then, you know, I went into environmental science in University, I think, with that same kind of looking at…kind of…environmental issues and the impact that we were having. But then I quickly also turned to human rights and social justice issues. When I traveled to Guatemala to initially learn Spanish but was really kind of informed by what was happening there and spent a year living in an indigenous community that had, kind of, lived through this brutal civil war in Guatemala, and came back with this idea of human rights and social justice issues, but also looking towards, you know, what I saw was the impact of economic globalization on some of the, you know, global South, on some of the poorest countries in the world. And, so, I…after spending a lot of time in the activist realm, which for those who are in it, you spend a lot of time being against someone or something or some policy, and it becomes quite…you kind of burn out oftentimes, because you're always…you know…in the negative of: This is what we're doing wrong. This is what humanity is doing wrong. And, so, I started to turn towards…okay…solutions.
What are some of the positive solutions out there? Yes, we need the activists that are bringing light and awareness to what's going on in the world. But we also need to show people a different way of being, right, because we can't just shame people into doing the right thing. We want to inspire people to do the right thing. And, so, I saw this course called Gandhi and Globalization that was offered by Dr. Vandana Shiva.
Jenny LePage
Oooooh
Kareen Erbe
Yes, I know! At her organic farm in India, near Dehra Dun, and it really spoke to me of, like, how can, you know, Gandhi's philosophy of, kind of, localizing, re-localizing economies, becoming independent from the British, be applied to the current situation that we're in with the global economy and things that are all at a global scale? So, I took that course, and it was in that course that I first heard the term permaculture.
And, you know, for those of your listeners who don't know, permaculture stands for permanent agriculture or permanent culture, and it's a design approach for sustainable living and land use that's rooted in the observation of natural systems. So, how can we look at our yards, our gardens, our communities and neighborhoods, and design them in a way that mimics the natural systems that we see? And I'm sure we'll get a little bit more into this in our talk. So, that's when I kind of…that ignited a spark of: hey, you know…again as a young person you're thinking…Oh, I want to go out and “save the world,” you know, in quotation marks. But then, realizing, of course, that what is more useful is coming back home to your place and where you are, and having an impact in your local community that, you know, the cheap bananas, and that cheap, kind of, products for export, you know, is what's leading to kind of an exploitation of, you know, the global self, so to speak, and that we need to produce more of our food locally and bolster local food systems to have an impact.
Jenny LePage 00:07:55
So, you studied with Dr. Vandana Shiva in India and you learned permaculture!
Kareen Erbe 00:08:04
Yeah. Yeah. And, also, the other person that was part of that was Satish Kumar, who runs the Emergence Magazine, and he was just such an inspiration. I think it's that holistic approach to the whole idea was: Yes, look looking at local food systems, understanding Gandhi's philosophy in his life, but also, kind of, that holistic approach to a person as a spiritual being, too…that, you know, the inner, the inner resilience that we have to cultivate, in addition to the kind of outer landscape resilience that we need to cultivate as well.
Jenny LePage 00:08:42
Yes, so permaculture really does that.Well, maybe you can tell us a little bit more about permaculture, that it's really…it's kind of like a paradigm shift in how we approach living and growing food and living together…how we how we see the world.
Kareen Erbe 00:09:00
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people come to permaculture through organic gardening oftentimes. But it's a much broader system. It was coined in the in the 70’s by two Australians, Bill Mollison and David Holmgren. But we need to emphasize that they were looking at traditional ecological knowledge and indigenous practices. Right? They were looking at what had been done in the past, right, indigenous land management practices, but they kind of repackaged everything into this term permaculture. And I think, on the one hand, you know, there's certain problematic things with that approach. But, on the other hand, I think it's a way for, kind of, the Western mind to digest this information, and to reconnect with the natural world, like, ultimately, that's what it's about. It's about living by a set of ethics, you know: Earth care, people care, you know, which are kind of self-explanatory. And then fair share, kind of limiting our consumption…Understanding that if we have a surplus in our system, we feed it back to the first two ethics. So, if we have a surplus of manure in our system, we feed it back to the soil. If we have a surplus of time, we help our neighbor in her garden. If we have a surplus of money, maybe we donate it, right, to a cause that's important to us.
So that whole cycle of reciprocity that we see in natural systems can be, kind of, mimicked again in our lives. And that it’s… permaculture is, ultimately, yes, it's on a landscape level, but it's ultimately about life design. How do you design a life that's more in relationship with the earth? You know, rather than looking at…kind of what we've done now, you know, is, you know, a linear extractive economy where what the natural world provides is for us to use, right, and abuse to an extent, and then to, you know, deposit in a landfill—and to look more at, kind of, circular economies and ways that natural systems have done this for millennia and trying to live more in relationship.
Jenny LePage 00:11:22
I think that word that you're using—natural systems—is, from my understanding of permaculture, that's really, kind of, one of the key things: that we're drawing a connection to how…from how the earth is to how we should live because we are part of that, too.
So, natural systems don't have a continuous line of growth. And just take, take, take. We actually have to be interconnected and balanced in our, in our cycles, and the way we use things, the way we give back…that it's more of a circle than a line.
Kareen Erbe 00:12:04
Absolutely, and I'm very intentional over the past few years. I'm very intentional about saying natural systems versus nature, because when you say nature, you're somehow, kind of, you're apart from nature. Nature's over there, right? But we are, as Penny Livingston Stark, who's a permaculture practitioner, a very well-known permaculture practitioner…She has a quote saying, “We are nature working.”
Right. We are part of these natural systems, and it's because we think that we're apart from nature that we've been able to exploit it to a certain extent, right. But if we viewed us, you know, that we're in this web of life, right, then we wouldn't have that same relationship with it.
Jenny LePage 00:12:51
We're part of it. That's the big…That's the big shift we talk about, we see these days. We're not separate. We're part of it.
Kareen Erbe 00:13:02
Yeah. yes.
Jenny LePage 00:13:05
So, Kareen, you mentioned that permaculture gives you hope. And what is it that actually gives you hope in permaculture? And how does your work keep you inspired?
Kareen Erbe 00:13:22
Yeah. So, I think it's hopeful…permaculture gives me hope because it's a set of positive solutions. So, it's like: Here's a lens through which to view the world, and here are all the different ways that you can get involved. So, a lot of it is food based, you know, and I think that gives me a lot of hope when I can, with my clients, help them put in fruit trees, or help them start their very first vegetable garden, you know, offering, like, a level of self-reliance to their family.
So, that gives me hope…that I get to interact with people, you know, on the…on a daily basis, or in my work, who want to provide food for their families, or they want to put in wildlife habitat, or, you know, attract pollinators to their garden, or just contribute in a positive way. So, that… I feel like when you're constantly around people who want to contribute positively, that gives you a lot of hope. Right? You know, again, that maybe sometimes negative space of activism where you're constantly around issues and people who are angry. And you know, and we're always being like, this is what we've done wrong. And this is another thing that we've done wrong, and you know that kind of brings you down, kind of is a spiral of despair.
Whereas, when you're around people who are planting fruit trees, or they're, you know, putting in a raised bed for their vegetables, or they're thinking along these lines of you know: How do we contribute to a better society? That's kind of a spiral of hope, you know, you stay in that, and I think there are more of us than we think there are. And, so, I think a lot of permaculture is also about community building, and that's what I view my business as, as well, is that part of my business, yes, is to provide a right livelihood for myself. But, on the other hand, it's about bringing people together. So, whether it's potlocks, whether it's workshops, just time, opportunities to foster a sense of belonging and a sense of shared values, I think that people crave that right now. They want to be around positivity. They want to be around solutions-oriented activities.
And they want to be kind of immersed in hope, because what we see in the news constantly, there are 1,000 different reasons why we should be, kind of, immersed in despair right now, and, so, offering opportunities for people to be like: You know, there are good people in the world doing good things, and we can turn this around. We have all of the solutions. We have all of the tools that we need. You know…we know about regenerative agriculture. We understand how to build soil. We understand how to attract more pollinators. All of that is available to us. It's just a question of getting our hands dirty, literally.
Jenny LePage 00:16:37
Literally. That's really. That's really great that you are able to connect people and inspire people and, like you're saying, people do really want to get involved in things, and sometimes they don't know what to do or how to reach that opportunity. And you're providing it and creating it and inspiring more people to go out and do that, also, through workshops and the people that you work with.
That's so awesome, Kareen! Woooooh!
Kareen Erbe 00:17:14
And so many other people are doing it, too, right, and that's, and that's what we don't maybe know about.
You know that the media, you know, covers all of the bad things that are happening. Not all the good, countless good things that are happening in communities every day of people like me, and you, kind of connecting people or helping people in some way, shape or form, kind of contribute more meaningfully to society. And that's kind of our…that's what I feel is part of my job, too, is reminding people that they're out there, right, because it's easy, again, to like, you know numb out to everything in isolation and not remember.
Jenny LePage 00:17:59
It's really, really inspiring.
Kareen Erbe 00:18:01
Yeah.
Jenny LePage 00:18:03
Kareen, How many? I'm springing this question on you: how many people have you worked with so far? I'm wondering how many people you work with, how many people have transformed their land, and how much food are people actually able to produce for themselves?
Kind of three questions in one here.
Kareen Erbe 00:18:27
Right, exactly. It's a very, yes, involved question. I don't know how many people I've worked with over the years. I've been in business for over a decade. And I work both with remote clients and with people locally. And of course, then, I have a YouTube channel. So, you know, you have no idea who's watching half of the time, right? But I have gotten feedback of, you know, especially, you know, I have a cold-climate food forest tour on there, and I get feedback fairly often of like: Oh, thank you so much. You know, there's not a lot of information out there about growing in cold climates. So, this is really inspiring.
So, you know, I like to say…I don't know..thousands. I don't know really on a regular basis. You know, in terms of the local people that I deal with in a growing season, you know, dozens, but, you know, on a wider level, I think, just with having that information out there on YouTube for better or for worse, right? And you know, having dealt with clients over the past 10 years in workshops, you know, it's a significant number. I mean, I'm trying to have it be more because there need to be more of us doing this and skilling up people.
That's something that I always think about is that on that kind of spectrum of people growing food, you know, survivalist versus like hippie granola person who's interested in growing food. You know, I'm kind of that community based. I don't..I don't necessarily want to encourage people to like, you know, grow everything, absolutely everything, and be in their bunker, you know, ready for the Apocalypse, like, I want to be building community and skilling up as many people as possible. So, if things do get really difficult, which they have, you know, we had a pandemic, right…that more and more people…that we can kind of all rise together, right, rather than, like, retreat into our individual corners and defend what we have. You know, I'm much more on the community-oriented side of things that it, like, it takes a village, and it's going to take a village to mov through this time of transition.
Jenny LePage 00:20:52
So, it's really about connecting with each other as an actual tool for stability, not just because we like it, and it's good for us and that sort of thing, but it actually creates resilience through being connected to one another.
Kareen Erbe 00:21:11
Absolutely. And I think that that's where our resilience is at a local level. You know, we won't necessarily be able to rely, you know…I'm not against government at all, but I don't think…that goes too too slowly. That moves too slowly, right. And I think it's, like, the local community is where you can see that impact.
And we saw it during the pandemic. We see it during times of crisis. It's communities coming together that shift things. And, so, I think that that is super important. Another definition of permaculture is the art of creating beneficial relationships.
And, so, you're creating beneficial relationships between plants, then visual relationships between plants and animals, between plants, animals, and people. But you're also creating beneficial relationships between people. That's what my gatherings and potlucks are for… is to network with people and to create those relationships that people can have and connect with one another, feel that sense of belonging, but also feel that sense of maybe responsibility to one another as well.
Jenny LePage 00:22:21
That's really awesome, Kareen. I want to go to one of your potlucks!
Kareen Erbe 00:22:27
You should come up for one!
Jenny LePage
Maybe I will!
Kareen Erbe 00:22:30
And that is again..it's like when I look at, you know, when people are in a position where they can have and host gatherings, I'm just like, do it! You know, whether it's three people that show up or 30 doesn't matter, like, you never regret hosting a gathering to bring people together. We know this from being so much in isolation, right? That during the pandemic, or being in lockdown, we know that when we come together you always feel better.
Jenny LePage 00:23:01
We do.
So. Okay. So how much food, and tell us a little….Some highlights, maybe some…What kinds of food are people growing right now?
Kareen Erbe 00:23:16
Yeah. So, I mean, I think, what's inspiring, and I use, you know, my place as kind of a demonstration site. So, for us, in a kind of a 100 [foot] by 100 [foot] plot, where I have my food forest, and some of my annual production. I, we grow, like, six months of fresh fruit a year, and still have frozen fruit, right, and dehydrated fruit that we're eating right now. So...
Jenny LePage
That’s amazing.
Kareen Erbe 00:23:46
So that's kind of....
And, so, I've had clients, you know, last year, during my, you know, some of the people that went through my resilient homestead program have, since, you know, a lot of people who join my resilient homestead program seem to be, like, overachievers. They're, like, awesome and amazing. But one of my clients is setting up a small flower farm, and also, you know, providing food for her family. Another one of my clients, you know, put in this whole great rainwater capture system, and we're going to put in a pond this year, and they're growing some of their own food. Another one of my clients put in, like, a rooftop garden.
Jenny LePage
Wow
Kareen Erbe 00:23:28
And, so, I think, more than anything sometimes. Yes, it's quantity of food, you know. I think about a client of mine in Helena, Montana, that just grew, like, pounds and pounds of tomatoes and potatoes, right, just, you know, abundance coming out of her garden.
But a lot of it for me, too, is not as much the quantity, which is important in terms of, kind of, food production. But it's also the kind of intangible benefits of that relationship, right? That the reason why I think permaculture holds a lotta hope for people is that agriculture is one of the quickest ways to connect people to the natural world. Yes, you can go on a hike, right? And that is really important, too. But I think the act of putting a seed in the ground and seeing that evolve, and then having that land on your plate is really powerful, I think, more powerful than people really understand.
It's something that we did. My grandmother did, without thinking, right, because that was just how you live, right. But we lost that, you know. We got…became disconnected, with the industrial food system that came in, right. But now I think people get so much joy and satisfaction from that, and whether it's that you have a bunch of pots on your balcony, and you've done that, or whether you do provide a good portion of food for your family, that feeling is the same, and, so, sometimes it's more of a qualitative measure rather than a quantitative. But having said that, you know, it is, like, you can grow a lot of food for yourself in very little space, and that's what I think, in cold climates too, I want to inspire people to, because I think a lot of people make this assumption that, oh, you're in a cold climate. You can't grow very much. You can actually grow a lot, and especially, like, in the Gallatin Valley, where we are, where it is more of an agriculturally-based community, right? There are so many different way in which you can get local food.
So, what I encourage clients to do is we're…we're marching towards self-reliance, not self-sufficiency, and the difference is that self-reliance. Well, self-sufficiency is, I'm going to go to my bunker and, like, provide everything: my food, shelter, in isolation. You know, I don't need anyone else. Self-reliance is: I want to also rely on other people, so I understand that I can't grow everything. Because that's kind of crazy-making, right, that takes a lot of work. So, I am going to rely on my local grower for the oil, or for the flower, or for the chickpeas, or for, you know, the goat cheese, or whatever. I'm going to rely on other people, and in the meantime, in relying on them, I'm in relationship with them. And they are with me. And that's what we want, right? That's the web that we're trying to weave, the web of relationship that we're trying to weave. Because we cannot do it all on our own. That's that individualistic culture that we're trying to interrupt. We're trying to go more towards community-based food systems.
Jenny LePage 00:27:50
So, it's really, like, a shift from looking at just me, the individual to me as a community, and maybe even the whole planet, if we can think that big, right. But our individual communities are, they become almost like a singular entity like: oh, I don't have to provide my entire family’s food for the year, but maybe I grow cilantro, and basil, and have a pear tree, or whatever land that we might have, or a pot on our balcony, or whatever it might be. And then we support the whole system, not just that individual. That's really a shift in how we…how we perceive who we are.
Kareen Erbe 00:28:39
Yes.
Yeah, and that's, again, that we're in relationship with other people and other beings. And I think that that's that reminder constantly of: this is how we shift culture to think more as a communal species rather than as individuals. And it's less intimidating, too. I think something I run into a lot with my clients is: oh, my gosh! This is a lot of work.
Jenny LePage
It is.
Kareen Erbe 00:29:11
You know, and it's a lot of work. If you think you're supposed to do it alone. Like, agriculture was never meant to be an individual act. You know, it was meant to be done in community. And again, if you look at traditional cultures, it was always done in community. And so now, what we've done is we've kind of overlaid agriculture onto our individualistic culture, and then we have this expectation from ourselves that we can do it all alone.
And then we beat ourselves up when we can't. Because how can you do it when you're nested in a capitalist economy, where you also have to make money to pay for your mortgage, or to pay for your rent, or to, you know, pay for all of your different expenses. You can't grow food and do those things and expect that you're gonna be able to do that just yourself alone.
Jenny LePage 00:30:07
So true, it takes so much time. Yeah, just to have a job. Right? Then we think about growing food on top of that. Yeah, we can't do it. We can't do it all alone. We can't live, especially right now…we have to be able to live in both worlds, most of us, really. It's not just about jumping ship and living off the land, which is great, too, and some of us do that, and that's wonderful. And, really, we also have great things that we have available to us in being part of this world, too. We have technology and this global awareness that we wouldn't have otherwise. And it's great to include the whole community beyond just our little world.
Kareen Erbe 00:31:06
Yeah.
Jenny LePage
And it takes time to have a job.
Kareen Erbe 00:31:00
Exactly.
Jenny LePage
And pay for things. And yeah, and...
Kareen Erbe
So, it's like: How do you create the village culture in the society that we live in today? Right? It's that, you know, we're not living in this isolated village or this intentional community. Some of us are. And some of us have the privilege to do that, right, but a lot of us don't, right. So, it's also, like, how do you mimic a village culture in the society that you're in now?
And those are, you know, those are the questions that I'm always grappling with, like, how do you create social systems to get more help on your place? Right? How do you network and create beneficial relationships in your life that can support you?
You know, we say it takes a village to raise a child, it absolutely takes a village to, you know…we talked before we started recording about how I've moved my parents here, and I just recognize. Wow! I cannot do this alone, right. Elder care can take over your life, and being, like, oh, yes, this is not the way we're supposed to design, talking about permaculture and permaculture design. This is not how we're supposed to be designing our lives, right, where you, as an individual, have to take on what is a village task.
Jenny LePage 00:32:22
I love how you say that you keep thinking about how to do this. Not like you know everything…and that's part of…it's part of the principle itself, is to be thinking, right, to be open to questions, how do we create and how do we co-create together? How do we come up with these ideas as communities? And just by focusing on these things, it allows us to get our creative mind working. And I always say, humans are so smart! We just need to…we need to put our attention into the best places to be able to come up with the ideas. So. part of this is…
Kareen Erbe 00:33:10
Yeah, sorry.
Jenny LePage
Yeah, yeah, no, Go ahead. Go ahead.
Kareen Erbe 00:33:13
Well, I think that's also that whole idea, right, that there's an emergent…There are things that emerge from taking a relationship with it. Just like your site, right? If you're growing food, right? And you're planting trees and shrubs and perennial plants, right? It's a dynamic system. It changes every year, right? And that's what people kind of….We don't…We resist change, a lot, in our lives in general, but we have to kind of understand that when you're in relationship with the landscape it's dynamic.
And, so, it changes. And the same thing is that we don't know what the solutions are to some of our most pressing problems in a sense, right. We don't know what's going to come out of having people, connecting people, and connecting people in community and connecting them to the natural world. A lot of that is still emerging. But we can in the meantime just be part of that transition, and we don't yet know what the end….There is no endpoint.
Jenny LePage 00:34:19
There is no end point.
Kareen Erbe 00:34:23
This is a journey through to who knows where we're gonna end up. But in the meantime, you know, it's a pretty, you know…it's trying to be as kind of in as right a relationship as you as you can to what's happening. You know, Wendell Barry says, you know, “I know this is a long game, right, and I'm probably on the losing side. But what else are you gonna do?”
You know? And I think, unfortunately, like, a lot of people choose to just numb out to it, and it's like the invitation with permaculture is, like, No, you can participate in this. You know, one of the principles, yo know…Permaculture is a set of ethics that I mentioned. And then there are several different principles.
And one of the principles is small and slow solutions. Right. That you can get overwhelmed by the bigness and think that you're suddenly gonna, like, shift the climate crisis on your own, right. It's everybody doing…choosing a small and slow solution in their community, and we know this, right, the ripple effect, and, you know, think globally, act locally. We know those cliches, but I think that permaculture actually, like, distills it down to: Yeah, that's what this looks like.
Right? It’s that:Think Globally Act locally. It looks like working in community to encourage people to grow food or it's, you know, networking and figuring out how to feed people who don't have the resources. It's, you know, bringing people together around a community-based art event, right. All of those things can fit under the framework of permaculture.
Jenny LePage 00:36:03
Imagine if we all did that. We really would have a different world. Yeah.
Kareen Erbe 00:36:09
It would be amazing! Yeah. Yeah.
And that's part of it is the imagination, you know. Rob Hopkins, who's part of the permaculture movement, came out with a book, you know, a couple of years ago, entitled From What Is to What If, and that whole idea of unleashing the power of the imagination, really looking at…Let's imagine a world where everything turns out okay.
Jenny LePage 00:36:35
Ooooooh
Kareen Erbe 00:36:38
Because most of the media out there is imagining a world where it all collapses.
I think what permaculture is about is, again, we have the tools. What if everything turned out okay? What if everybody did rally? And it's not necessarily that that's gonna happen, like, we don't want to be in this la-la land. But just by imagining it, people then start to make some of those things a reality.
Jenny LePage 00:37:04
Well, and there's no reason that we don't.
Kareen Erbe 00:37:07
Right?
Jenny LePage 00:37:09
It is possible.
Kareen Erbe 00:37:11
Totally, Yeah, and kind of staying in that possibility. But people don't stay in that possibility.
Jenny LePage 00:37:19
You are. It's so great.
Kareen Erbe 00:37:19
Yes, yeah, and I think it's, and it's… that's what I encourage. Looking for opportunities to stay in that possibility.
Jenny LePage 00:37:30
So, part of that possibility, part of… you're talking about is community, and you're talking about different plants and having different people grow different things. Part of this is, and part of the permaculture and sustainability approach, is biodiversity.
So, and maybe you said this word, maybe not. I can't remember. But can you talk about biodiversity and how that is important for resilience and food systems and people?
Kareen Erbe 00:38:08
Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the permaculture principles is: use and value diversity. Right now, 90 percent of our diet is, like, 20 species in the plant world. And, so, it's like, that is just not resilient, right? What if we lose five of those species because of climate change? Right? So,understanding how, kind of, the more diverse a system, the more resilient it is. You know, that's really important. It's because of all of this biodiversity loss that we're seeing, ecosystems collapse because we're not…we don't have the plant and animal species that build that resilience. You know, those are…it's essential…biodiversity is essential for all of the processes that support these ecosystems. And, so, without it, we don't have that stability. And I think what's interesting is that we're only kind of now forced to look at it, because we're seeing ecosystems collapse. We kind of took it for granted, right, that if one thing doesn't fulfill that niche, some other species is there because we have so many different species to fill that niche. And so, like, on your landscape in your small space, you know, a way of looking at that is, if you're trying to produce a good portion of your own food, you want to make that ecosystem as diverse as possible. So, you're growing cherries and gooseberries and currants and strawberries and raspberries, and then zucchini and tomatoes and peas and cabbage, etc.
Jenny LePage
Yum!
Kareen Erbe 00:40:01
That sounds amazing.
So, if some of those crops fail, which they will every season, you still have food. And even within a species, if you have tomatoes, maybe you grow five different types of tomatoes. ‘Cuz some of them might do well one season, and some of them won't, right. It's about stacking your system with diversity, so that on a food level, right, your needs are met.
And then, you know, there's a huge movement now towards native plants. Right. We want to put as many native plants in our system to support native pollinators, to support native bird species. And, so, it's like the more natives we have that are adapted to the local climate that are more resilient, the more they're going to bring in biodiversity that can only kind of bolster the ecosystem.
So, it's just understanding the more diversity the better. You know, we kind of know that. The more diverse, kind of, even in a community. Right? You look at a community level. The more diverse a community, the more ideas, you know, backgrounds and experiences, the more innovation comes out of that.
Jenny LePage 00:41:26
Kareen, as we're talking here, I'm thinking about, like, we have our mono crops right now of, like, fields of corn and the same field of wheat and the same one type of citrus plant. And right. So, this is what permaculture is doing, something really different by really just what nature does is having a really broad range of different things that do well under different conditions. So, it's kind of like a backup in that sense.
Kareen Erbe 00:41:59
Totally.
Jenny LePage 00:42:01
And that makes so much sense. I'm also wondering about one of the things that we have tied into our singular crops, our mono crops, is a lot of pesticide use and a lot of genetic modification, genetic engineering. What are your thoughts about those things?
Kareen Erbe 00:42:22
(Laughing) Well. Yes, yeah, of course. So, you know. Permaculture encourages polycultures instead of monocultures. Because, again, yeah, the pest hits that one crop of corn, it's gonna take out that whole crop of corn versus the polyculture. If the pest hits something, it won't hit everything because you have other things growing there. So, with regards to pesticides, pesticides effectively kill maybe that one pest, right, but one: they weaken the soil food web, they kill the soil microorganisms, and it's kind of like antibiotics versus probiotics, right, in terms of…in a permaculture system, if you have a pest or disease, the idea is in your garden, say, the idea is to add life to add soil microbiology to add compost tea, right, rather tha to just go to war with that one pest. It's to introduce life into the system, so that the natural system can do the job that it's done rather than always having the human being kind of have to interfere in the system. Same with, you know, genetically modified - gmo’s - genetically modified organisms, I mean, we just don't know, like what we're doing, you know, like I would just rather like let's stick with open-pollinated heirloom varieties, like, let's not mess too much with the natural world.
There are ways in which to grow food, right, and to increase biodiversity without doing those things. People will argue that gmo’s are going to feed the world, or we need pesticides, or we need the industrial Ag to feed the world. That's not how most of the world is being fed right now. Most of the world is being fed by small farmers. And we are going to feed 9 billion people, not with some silver bullet solution to, you know, how to… you know some technology of how to feed people with, whatever. the impossible burger or hydroponics, or whatever. It's going to be every single community figuring out how feed themselves. It's getting back to, you know, Gandhi's principle of re-localizing economies. That's how we're going to feed people because we have diverse cultures, we have diverse climates, you know.
Every community has to figure that out for themselves in terms of what strategies make the most sense for their climate. And that's how we're going to feed the world, by re-localizing, not by globalizing a food system. We know that that's fragile. We know that that's brittle. It's not working. It hasn't worked for…I don't think it's ever worked, right, and it's definitely not working anymore.
Jenny LePage 00:45:28
Is that stability in diversity?
Kareen Erbe 00:45:33
Totally. Yup.
Jenny LePage 00:45:35
Well, and it's interesting, Kareen, that you're talking about not just decimating one pest but having a whole bunch of different things that create life and support more forms of life. So, it's really even just…We can compare it to how you're talking about having hope in what it is that we are doing. How do we promote life? How do we promote balance in the world and in the ecosystems. How do we promote community? How do we…How do we encourage all these really hopeful and healthy things instead of just that activism part that's like: Oh, this thing is bad, bad, bad, and everyone feels really discouraged and angry, and it's kind of like that pesticide that just kills that one thing.
Kareen Erbe
Totally. I love that analogy. That's great.
Brilliant, Jenny. Yes.
Jenny LePage
Woooh!
Kareen Erbe
Yes. The ecological applies to the social. Yes.
Jenny LePage 00:46:35
Right, well, and that's just it that we aren't so different in our mentality and our creative ideas, in our…the way that we live and grow food. The more that we mimic nature, the more we mimic the natural world of which we are part, the more resilient we are, the more stable that we are, just by doing something that's not trying to work against it, but with it.
Kareen Erbe 00:47:00
Exactly. Yup
Jenny LePage 00:47:03
Part of that, too, is perennial plants.
Can you talk to us about perennial plants, and why that is important?
Kareen Erbe 00:47:17
Yes.
Jenny LePage
..in our approach?
Kareen Erbe 00:47:15
Awesome. Yeah. So perennial plants for those who, don't know are those plants that, you know, come back year after year, that you plant them once, and then they die back, they go dormant, and then the following year they come back up again versus annuals that you have to plant every year. And, so, perennial plants are great for a variety of reasons. One. You just plant them once and Two. You don't have to disturb the soil. So, you know, beneath our feet. You know, and it's becoming more and more common now, which is amazing is the soil, food, web of soil, microorganisms, and macro-organisms that are supporting life both below ground and above ground. And, so, with our annual systems, we're always knocking that back to an immature state, which is why kind of those weeds or quote “pioneer species” come in.
You know, natural systems abhor a vacuum right? They want to cover that bare soil. So, in an annual garden you're always kind of battling weeds, whereas in a perennial system that kind of marches towards a more mature stable system. And you're not having to disturb the soil, and you're only having to plant once. And, so, when I'm, you know, in a cold climate, you know, usually you do still need an annual garden, and as I'm like, at this time of year, just going nuts right with trying to get in annual vegetables and stepping up my tomatoes. And, you know, doing all of this stuff related to my annual garden…my rhubarb’s growing, My currants are growing, my raspberries are growing, my fruit trees are growing without me doing much of anything. And, so, there's a lot of power in that, and there's a movement towards more agroforestry systems.
So, if you talk also about carbon capture. you know, alone perennial plants, trees, shrubs right and along with building soil, are huge carbon sequestration mechanisms, right? And, so, the more and a more…. Again, we've been talking stable and resilient type of systems. So, not only on kind of that level of personally, it's less for you to maintain kind of…Planetarily, also, it's more beneficial.
Jenny LePage 00:49:41
And that's what nature does, too. We have a lot more perennials when we walk in a forest or a meadow, or really anywhere that that we're not really heavily altering the ecosystem. There's mostly perennials.
Kareen Erbe
Exactly. Yeah.
Jenny LePage 00:50:00
So, that's another example. We should.We should think about: what is nature doing, and how can we apply that to our food systems, also.
Kareen Erbe 00:50:09
Absolutely.
Whenever there's an opportunity to put perennial edible plants in your system. If you have the space, right, I always encourage clients to do that. So, whether it's fruit trees, or berry bushes, or asparagus or some perennial herbs, like, all of that stuff. It's like a one-tim investment of time and money, potentially, that will yield in perpetuity.
Jenny LePage 00:50:35
It seems brilliant.
Kareen Erbe 00:50:39
I know why don’t we do that more often?!
Jenny LePage 00:50:40
Why don't we do that? And can do both, too. We can still grow our tomatoes and our lettuces, and those annual things that we really enjoy also. And we have the the perennial things kind of just happening in the background and maintaining the balance of the ecosystem. And, like you mentioned Kareen, addressing some of these bigger problems, like, what are we doing with…We've got the planet heating up and climate change in large part because of so much carbon. And when we have these plants with roots, they help pull that from the eco… or from the atmosphere. And so we're. We're kind of doing two things. We're starting to address those bigger problems of climate change and feeding ourselves at the same time…
Kareen Erbe 00:51:34
Absolutely.
Jenny LePage
With perennial plants.
Kareen Erbe 00:51:38
It's a win, win.
Jenny LePage 00:51:43
It's a win-win. Let's all do it. (both giggling)
Kareen Erbe 00:51:42
That's my job.
Jenny LePage 00:51:45
That is your job, and building soil, too. So, soil, right, is really important, for, it's a life system, right. It's kind of like an iceberg. We just see that one little thing on top. But there's all this depth of a world and life happening below the surface. That is…it's really important that we keep that intact and encourage a healthy ecosystem. And it holds in water, pulls water. Yes, water is one of our big concerns in the world right now, too.
Kareen Erbe 00:52:21
Yeah. Yeah, soil is a big part, right? And when you talk about food systems there's a quote, and I forget from who out there that our entire existence relies on the top six inches of soil. It that feels like, maybe a bit of a fragile system. So, kind of. I often tell my students, right? We need to not only be growers of food, but growers of soil. And again, it's like understanding these natural processes and then mimicking them. Once you know how to make a… once…Once you know how decomposition happens. then you know you have compost piles, and you look at ways in which you have perennial systems, and you're constantly also in the…You're also a soil builder on your property in addition to, kind of, a food grower, and viewing it that way, too, that helping the soil food web.
We lose a ridiculous amount of topsoil a year. I don't have that statistic top of mind. But it is quite alarming how much topsoil we lose, and that's because of industrial agriculture, practices of pesticide use and synthetic fertilizers that kill that the soil microbiology that decreases the soil structure and turns your soil into dirt and dust that blows away easily. But the more we can build up that soil structure so that it doesn't blow away, the more we can introduce soil microorganisms into our gardens right the more beneficial and the less…the less work you're doing. the more you can support the soil food web. That is what provides nutrients to your plants, not you dumping synthetic fertilizer on them that that essentially puts them on life support and reliant on you to do the work rather than the actual natural system that has been doing it for millennia. Like again…Permaculture like they talk about it. Permaculture is just common sense, right. A lot of it is just getting back to what is just inherent in natural systems. But, somehow, we have to re-learn it.
Jenny LePage 00:54:40
It's brilliant and simple.
Kareen Erbe 00:54:42
Yes, yeah. for sure.
Jenny LePage 00:54:45
Well, and those nutrients, too. We get all the varied nutrients all those micro-nutrients. Things like that. We're not going to get that from our one big dose of nitrogen that we that we put on in a synthetic fertilizer. We're going to get it from all the varied things that are going into the soil with a more varied compost, for instance.
Kareen Erbe 00:55:07
Exactly. Diversity of inputs means diversity of outputs, and it's again getting back to that diversity thing of the more diverse our diet, right, the more diverse the plant nutrients going in, the healthier that vegetable will be.
Jenny LePage 00:55:23
And it tastes better, too.
Kareen Erbe 00:55:27
Right! Yeah, I mean, for all of those reasons.
Yeah, it's interesting, too. There's nothing like a home-grown tomato.
Or herbs or something like that. It's a different taste. When I was younger, I didn't like tomatoes. Why? Because they were bought from the store, and they were mushy and mealy and tasteless.
Jenny LePage
Gross haha
Kareen Erbe
Now I grow, you know, 50 tomato plants a year, you know. So, it is just kind of a question of…there's so much benefit to growing your own food on so many different levels.
Jenny LePage 00:56:03
It's amazing. Why don't we all do this?
Kareen Erbe 00:56:07
I know, we keep on saying!! hahaha
We don't need to all become gardeners, right? I do encourage people if they can, and if they have the privilege and the opportunity to grow some of their own food. But we also need people in other parts of the society doing different things, but they can support the gardeners and the farmers and the local food system if they're in a position to do so, right, so we need all pieces of the puzzle. But I think you know it is really…And you see kids, right, when, if you, if you introduce kids to growing food, there's a certain fascination with it, and that is agai an intangible benefit. So, whether you take it at a large scale where you're growing all of your food or a good portion of it, or you're just growing a couple of tomatoes in pots and some herbs, like, all of that is beneficial.
Jenny LePage 00:57:07
It's so true. It's so true. We don't all need to do everything. We have the specialists. And there is something… it's so true Kareen…There's something that is just inherently…It's like magic. When we watch a plant grow we have a seed, right, maybe a tomato seed, and we stick it in soil and…or a radish or a pea or a carrot. Or whatever, whatever it is, maybe a fruit tree. Maybe whatever thing that we're growing, and then aahhhh! what happens? This transformation happens! And we have evolved to have this sort of relationship with the earth, to watch life happen, to watch, watch this unfold.
The way that our proprioception works and our vision and the way that our bodies…the way that we learn to interact, the way that we see close up or distance, right. We kind of lose that when we spend all our time, especially kids, just looking at a computer screen. Adults do that. Most of us have grown up with that before the time of iphones and all the computerized world for the most part. So, we we do know that. And then we see that we lose that. We see kids on the playground pushing each other so hard. They don't even know their own strength because they're not…They're not interacting with the natural world. They don't have the ability to judge distance. They… it's like…just these simple connections that we that we really need to be a fully functional, healthy, human being. And then that connection with… what is this thing called life? Right? What is this? It's. It really is amazing. I'm sure you get this when you're when you're working with plants as much as you do, you have moments that are just full of awe, right….a flower, or a fruit, or a an interesting insect or something. Just: ah! how do you even put that into words? Right?
Kareen Erbe 00:59:19
Yeah.
I think it's a good reminder, too, that we're not just our brains, I think, and I struggle with this as well. Coming from a you know pretty intellectual background. You know where most of us are used to, kind of, you know, using our brains a lot and our minds, and being on computers and being in kind of the school system, right, where intelligence is rewarded. And you know that whole system, and not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that. But we have forgotten how to use our bodies too. You know where we can use our hands, right, to produce food, and we can move our bodies in order to produce pollinator habitat, and, like, we can participate more holistically in life and in living, whereas, I think we've kind of sometimes it's like, there's just… the body is just meant to transport the brain. And I think obviously there is a problem with that. And then, if you talk kind of spirit level. Yeah, when you're seeing all of those different native pollinators on a cilantro flower right? Or you know a carrot flower or something like that, and you're like… it kind of blows your mind a little bit like: Where are they all coming from? And you see, like, a diversity of different pollinators on this one flower. It's pretty awesome.
And I think it is…We forget to appreciate those little moments. I'm as guilty as the next person. You know, where, in those moments I try to stop, you know, you can get when you're farming and gardening. Of course you can get into the like to do list. And to those little moments where you see those things is when you stop and you take a breath, and you kind of reconnect and understand why you are doing what you're doing. And I think in this era of kind of, again, the individual hero or heroine of their story, right, thinking that they need to do these big things and have this big impact rather than kind of the small and slow, you know moments, sweet moments that you can kind of have every day in the garden, and we shouldn't discount those. Those are ultimately how we build our inner resilience. They have more of an impact than we probably think, but we need to remember to pay attention to them.
Jenny LePage 01:01:59
It does something, like you just said, something for the spirit right? That's really intangible. When we see these really beautiful, beautiful things, surround ourselves with life, we know on some level that is not really even the brain or beyond the brain. It's something that is just a felt experience and something in the body that really… it nourishes us in a really deep way.
Kareen Erbe 01:02:31
For sure. Yeah.
Jenny LePage 01:02:32
Carrot flowers are so beautiful.
Kareen Erbe 01:02:38
They’re so beautiful.
Jenny LePage
A field….A little patch of carrot flowers. It's like it's like… living, or it's like seeing a fairy tale or something. You, see, like, wow, what is this?
Kareen Erbe 01:02:49
Yes, I love when I get..You know, carrots that I have, you know, forgotten to harvest, or I didn't get to them, and they come up. You know that those volunteers in the permaculture garden that I let…that go to flower. Sometimes I get myself in trouble where there are a few too many volunteers? I'm like, what am I growing here? Exactly. Is it all this volunteers, or is it that zucchini plant that's totally overwhelmed…But yeah, I think it's all of that is really magical.
Jenny LePage 01:03:23
So, Kareen, what can our inspired listeners do now?
Can you…Well, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what your specific projects and opportunities are to work with you, and also what can…what could somebody do right now? What could somebody do this moment in time with a little bit of earth, a little bit of land, or a patch of soil. What can somebody do that would be along these lines of permaculture that we're talking about.
Kareen Erbe 01:04:04
Yeah, yeah. So, let's start there. And then I can talk about a little bit of some about some of my offerings. But yeah, if you have a little patch. You know, what I encourage is that if people haven't ever grown before, again, to start small, I often say, and grow into your garden. So, don't take on too much because you can get overwhelmed. You know, you want to understand how much it takes to grow and maintain a small plot, and then you can grow into your garden and expand the year… in another year, if you want. But I usually start with, you know, people off with like a four by six raised bed, or something like that, or an in-ground bed. Grow what You like to eat, you know, and grow what grows well in your climate. So, what's easy to grow; I would start there first, and for most people, you know that's like peas and zucchini and bush beans and radishes, and maybe some greens or something like that. Tomatoes are a little more challenging. Right. Peppers are more challenging, but you could try out a couple cherry tomatoes, or something like that. So just start with something small to just experiment.
And, you know what, I tell people is. Don't be afraid to fail, either, like, I fail in the garden every year with something that I try. That is common. That is what happens. I think, as adults, it's hard to be a beginner at something. But that's exactly what you're doing. We're relearning how to grow our own food. This is not something... most people now, that's not something that was passed down, so know that it's something new, but also know that, like, to trust your gut a little bit, too, that there's an inherent part of us that kind of knows what good soil smells like, what good soil feels like, whether a plant looks healthy, or whether it needs something, or whether you need to water something, like, some of that stuff you can kind of check in, you know, intuitively, with that stuff. So that's kind of what I would encourage is to start small, just grow, grow what you like to eat and know that you might fail and just do it.
Jenny LePage 01:06:31
Pressure’s off hahaha. The pressure’s off. Just have fun.
Kareen Erbe 01:06:37
I do think that, you know, the natural world is incredibly forgiving and regardless of you know whether you fail or you have some successes. It's a great opportunity to experiment. And, you know, I like to say, if you've been growing, I've been growing now for over 15 years. I've only grown tomatoes 15 times. You know, that's the thing, right. We are at the whim of the seasons that we're in, whereas, like, a musician can practice the same song 1,000 times to become better and better at it. We get, you know, limited chances, which, on the one hand makes it kind of that much more novel, right, and sweet, but also, like, if you fail. That's fine, you know you. You just try again the following year. So that's that would be what I recommend.
And then, in terms of my offerings, I have a couple of things coming up, so I, am offering a practical permaculture, grow your own food intensive for those who are in the Montana area it's at this award-winning sustainability center called Sage Mountain center in Whitehall, Montana, June second through fourth. So that's one great thing.
Jenny LePage 01:07:55
Cool.
Kareen Erbe 01:07:56
I'm also actually doing a practicum with Jerome Osentowski from the Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture Institute at the Sacred Sanctuary, near Boulder, June, 24 and 25.
And then there is also my resilient homestead program that I offer every November which is a four-month program, kind of a deep dive into permaculture concepts. It's online. And it includes kind of a …it's a group program where you learn content around permaculture, and I take you through the site-planning process. So, at the end of the time together you have a site plan for your property. And then, of course, I have a bunch of resources on my website, brokengroundpermaculture.com, bunch of different videos related to growing food in cold climates. So, that's also a way to engage through my website or through my YouTube channel.
Jenny LePage 01:08:55
That’s great, Kareen. so we can travel and go to one of your workshops, or if we live there. And find you online to do this program.
And you do consulting, too. So if you want to do something more, a little bit more individualized…
Kareen Erbe 01:09:13
Yes, I have one-on-one consultation packages with clients that I do. both. I work with remote clients, and I also work with people locally as well.
Jenny LePage 01:09:22
That's great.
That's so great. I'm so glad you're doing this.
Kareen Erbe 01:09:29
Yes, Well, thank you.
Jenny LePage 01:09:31
We need you.
Kareen Erbe 01:09:33
Yes, yeah. And every year, you know, I do teach a permaculture design course with Jerome Osentowski again in Colorado, near Basalt, Colorado, every year in July, and it's always great to just see new people, introduce new people to permaculture, and to know that people are going to go out there and use permaculture in different ways in their lives, whether they become permaculture practitioners, whether they become permaculture teachers and consultants, or whether they just introduce permaculture principles into their field of work. You know, all of that is beneficial, and permaculture is definitely kind of a grassroots movement. You know, of people that are practicing in different ways.
Jenny LePage 01:10:19
Yeah, not just gardening or growing. But so how do we live? How do we… How do we live as humans in a way that is interconnected and diverse.
Kareen Erbe 01:10:30
Absolutely
Jenny LePage
And resilient.
Kareen Erbe 01:10:33
We are all interdependent.
Jenny LePage 01:10:36
We are. whether we know it or not.
Kareen Erbe 01:10:40
Exactly. Hahaha. I mean, we're…people aren't paying attention. If they don't know. you know half of the time right it's like we can see it now with the climate crisis, like everything, is interconnected. You know this whole system with all the so-called natural disasters that we're seeing right now, it's a complete response. You know, one of the permaculture principles is self-regulate and accept feedback, you know, feedback that you get from the land and on a global level. Like, a lot of people aren't accepting the feedback, you know, the earth is telling us things aren't right. Things are out of balance, you know, and it's totally up to us to shift that and change that.
Jenny LePage 01:11:20
Well,and that's one of the great hopes, I think, with something like permaculture, is that we can ideally avoid some of the crisis and tragedy and suffering if we don't even have to go through it to learn. Oh, we need to do this now we need to grow our own food and become more resilient and interconnected when, if we do it before we're in a situation that's really dire, then maybe we don't have to experience quite as much of the difficulty.
Kareen Erbe 01:11:59
Absolutely, and that's a lot of what one of the co-originators, Holmgren, talks about is just this. Let's work towards a slow descent rather than a collapse. Right, that there's a gentler way to go through this transition, and we do have, like…I've been saying all of the tools that we need. We just need to have more people doing it, and that rather than like this fear-based model of it's all gonna fall apart.
Right? There's this opportunity to be like, okay, then let's all come together.
Jenny LePage 01:12:35
Let's all come together! hahaha
Kareen Erbe
Exactly! (laughing) That's the directive, everyone.
Jenny LePage
C’mon everyone.
Kareen Erbe 01:12:47
Come together.
Jenny LePage 01:12:59
Well, it is inspiring. It's kind of makes so much sense that that we do just want to naturally interact with our food and planet in this sort of way, and we might say that the world wants us to do this, too. The earth wants us to do this, too. It's a kind of another way of looking at things. But as part of the earth we are….Again, it's like one of those things we forget that that as humans we’re part of planet Earth. We, too, come from the soil we're made of this air and this water. We're part of a cycle. We're part of a consciousness of the planet that is going through this big shift in time right now, and the more that we are working with it and part of it, and connected to it. It's like a… a whole collective of being that we…it's not just that we become, but we realize that we actually are. We are part of this earth, and the plants want to interact with us.
There are people who talk a lot about this, like… we're going through a co-evolution of consciousness. We're not just becoming conscious. The plants are becoming more conscious, and we need each other to help that process along, and we're maybe kind of getting into a little different direction of conversation here. But it's almost like these plants are beings, right, that that they want to work with us, and everything really is alive and we can… It's a really fun process. We can tap into that more and more, not just eating healthie food and making sure that we're more resilient to survive and make it through these times, but, also, it's really fun. It's really, like, a cool experience to spend time with plants, and within this field, within a community of people that is a little bit more aware of each other, and things that are happening on a deeper level around us.
Kareen Erbe 01:15:10
Yes.
I mean it's a great reminder, I think, when you engage with the natural world around, like you said…Plant medicine, plant intelligence…You know it kind of makes you more humble, too. But I think there is a tendency, again, that humans are the species, right…he dominant species on the planet and kind of makes you smaller in relation to all the other species that are here, and then you kind of become humble. And with that sense of the humility you kind of approach your landscape and your life. And I do think that we've, again, gotten out of balance, and the more that those little moments we can kind of reweave those relationships, you know. That's essentially what we're doing is we're relearning about our interdependence and our interconnectedness, and that relearning can come in an apocalyptic way, right, through the climate crisis. Or it can come through community-building and growing food and bolstering local food systems and supporting farmers and helping, you know, less privileged people. And you know, being part of this network of support and of building a more resilient economy and community.
Jenny LePage
Really connecting with wholeness, our wholeness.
Kareen Erbe 01:16:40
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know it is. You know, in those moments right of despair and, kind of, anger and frustration, you know, it is kind of understanding that where we may not see fully kind of what our contribution does, right. But that's not. That's not the work, right? It's that we have to kind of contribute, and you know, have faith tha it will have an impact that like we said before, that there's an emergence that happens that we don't even know what's coming.
Jenny LePage 01:17:20
Let's find out.
Kareen Erbe
Yeah.
Jenny LePage 01:17:23
Well, I mean. And the truth is, people talk about the… our climate scientists and people really looking deeply at what's going on with the planet right now that is happening whether or not we do something about it. We're going through a big shift. And so we can go through the shift in a way that feels more like a crisis, and we're forced to come up with these local ideas, things that are more sustainable. or we can do it before we're forced to. And hopefully avert that catastrophe.
Kareen Erbe 01:18:01
Right.
Yeah. And it makes me think about the permaculture principle optimize edge. You know that on an ecosystem level the edge is where the action is, where the productivity is, so think a shoreline or a reef. Those are places that are more productive. And right now, we're on an edge, right, a kind of socially, culturally, we're on this edge of transition, and that there is this opportunity, right, for community-building, for productivity, for innovation, for creativity. And that's a way of looking at it, as well, is that we're forced….When we have limitations, we're forced to be creative, and that's kind of part of the permaculture kind of principles, right, is kind of that…When we're limited, we can be more creative and more innovative. So now we're starting to be limited. So, let's take that innovation. Let's take that creativity. It's going to take everything, right, again, that use and value diversity. It's going to take the artists and the musicians and the farmers and the backyard gardeners and the community builders, and the conservation nonprofits and the social justice and racial justice organizations.
It's going to take all of those to, kind of, rebuild and re-imagine a different world. But we're on this edge, and so let's step into that edge. You know, the edge of your comfort zone is always an area of growth. Right. Now we're in this edge as a society. It's an opportunity that something really beautiful could come out of it. I mean, I think there is…You know, I'm not gonna have rose-colored glasses. There is going to be a lot of suffering, right. But there may be something, you know, ultimately better and beautiful that comes out and through this experience.
Jenny LePage 01:20:05
Well THAT’S a really hopeful way of looking at this time. And it's true. We have a lot of potential.
Kareen Erbe 01:20:14
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny LePage 01:20:18
Kareen, is there anything else that you would like to share with us?
Kareen Erbe 01:20:24
No, maybe just only just like words of encouragement. But if you've ever feel felt drawn to grow some of your own food, just do it, you know. Just start small. Get in touch if you want some guidance or and or get in touch with the people in your local area, local gardeners in your area, agriculture extension places that can provide support. Local nurseries, all of that, just engage with your local community. The food growing community, in my opinion, is one of the best communities of people.
Jenny LePage
WOOOO!
Kareen Erbe
Yes! Exactly. We're both part of it. And, so, I think, if you are looking for a sense of belonging and meaning and creativity, it's a really great place to engage with.
Jenny LePage
Yeah!
Kareen Erbe
Yeah.
Jenny LePage
Awesome, Kareen.
Kareen Erbe
Cool! well, thank you so much, Jenny, for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Jenny LePage 01:21:30
Thank you so much for joining the conversation today, and I'm sure you've inspired a bunch of people.
Jenny LePage 01:21:40
And that is our that is our conversation for the day, and we will maybe check in with you again sometime in the future and see how the progress is going.
Kareen Erbe 01:21:54
That sounds good. Yeah. Again, if people have questions. brokengroundpermaculture.com. I'm also on Instagram @brokengroundMt
So, thanks again. Jenny.
Jenny LePage 01:22:05
Awesome, thank you so much, Kareen!
Ocarina (Jenny) 01:22:08
Jenny LePage 01:22:11
Thank you for listening! It was so fun hearing from Kareen, and I really hope you found that valuable. You can become a supporter of the show at jennylepage.com. It really helps to keep this project moving forward, so, thank you so much to everyone who contributes, whether it’s one time, or a few dollars a month, it’s a really great way to support this show if you can. Also, on the website, you can read episode notes, and there are some great photos, and you can also leave a comment or a message if you like. And you can ask a question if you have one, and maybe we’ll answer it in one of the next shows. And, again, that’s jennylepage.com.
Jenny LePage 01:23:26
Next week, as part of our really awesome local lineup, we have a super wonderful and really loved yoga and meditation teacher, both in Boulder and worldwide, and that is Jeanie Manchester. (applause) We will dive into her practices of meditation and mantra especially in the last decade or so, and we will also hear about her perspective on the role of the rising feminine in this shifting time on planet Earth. It’s gonna be a good one! So, tune in!
Jeanie Manchester 01:24:08
...and so what meditation will eventually do is take you to unity, and then you bring unity through diversity into the world so you start to se through the eyes of love…
Drum (Jenny) 01:24:21
